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Help With Terminology
Posted under Ask RSG, GLBTQ issues by Recovering Straight GirlA gentleman named John left a comment on the post I wrote, Pregnant Father about the terminology and differences between Sexual Identity and Gender Identity. In his comment he asked a question and for some help understanding these concepts.
Hi, I’m trying to understand all the terminology here. To be honest, I’m preparing for my comprehensive exams and the history of American Sexualities is one of my areas. I need help.
The reason that this is one of my categories is that my dissertation is on Frances Kellor. She was the head of the Americanization movement from 1908 - 1924. She had a female life partner for 50 years. She often dressed like a man. I need to understand how scholars would categorize her.
According to your terminology, though Kellor was phsyically a female, would you call her gender identity of male? If she has a gender identity of male, would she be heterosexual or lesbian? I read all the posts and still don’t entirely get it. Thanks!
BTW it might be interesting for you to know that Kellor ran much of Teddy Roosevelt’s 1912 progressive campaign. The press gave him grief for putting her and Jane Addams in positions of power. He said, in so many words, that they had changed his mind about suffrage and about lesbian women. Honestly, I think they both bonded over being so very macho. Kellor was a hunter and gamesman.
BTW, the Americanization movement always gets panned as coercive and hateful of diversity. I’m arguing, among other things, that it seems strange to assert that a gender bending lesbian was intolerant of diversity. I paint her work as inclusive. I think she would have seen herself as non-mainstream. Do you think this is fair?
Sorry for writing too much. Really, clarification on the terms would be most helpful. Book recommendations would too. Thanks, John
Well John, I’m not an expert on the subject, but plenty of the people who visit this blog know a thing or two about a thing or two around these areas. I know nothing about Ms. Kellor except what you have mentioned here and what I have quickly Googled.
I don’t think it would be fair to claim that Ms. Kellor identified as male without asking her first hand, (which obviously is impossible considering she’s dead.) I will tell you this–it was pretty typical for lesbians of that era to dress as men. More often than not they took on very specific Butch and Femme roles–the Butch lesbian would dress like a man, often to “pass” as a man or she would dress that way because she wanted to. The Butch/Femme identification was a pretty important part of queer culture during that time.
To critically look at the issue and the work that Ms. Kellor did as well as the fact that she had a partner for 50 years, my educated guess would be to classify her as a Butch Lesbian. She probably did bond with Teddy Roosevelt because they were both “macho,” lots of my Butch sisters are pretty damn macho and can hunt and fish and wrassle cattle and wield power tools.
She also may very well have been intolerant–just because someone is a feminist lesbian does not make her tolerant to other issues. I would have to further look at other evidence before I could state an opinion about that.
I’m sure some of the brilliant people who visit this blog will have some things to add and I look forward to what they have to say!
Good Luck John!
I’d probably just call her a dyke. And then she’d call me an asshole. And then we’d go get a beer and not worry about it.
I’m not an expert, but I have lots of thoughts. And even more opinions. You have been warned.
Gender identity is how one positions oneself along the gender spectrum (or in gender categories for those who prefer little boxes to the wild world of spectra). I agree with RSG, that one can’t know how Kellor identified without asking.
It’s also untrue that all lesbians are feminists. I know plenty of queers, all along the gender identity spectrum, who are certainly not feminist. I’m not saying that Kellor wasn’t a feminist, but identities, categories, and other descriptors are rarely synonymous. (Wasn’t there a biologically- and self-identified male lesbian on the L Word? Oh wait. That’s the L Word, ergo, does not conform with reality!)
So this comment is basically worthless, except to say that as far as I’m concerned, identities of all types are best utilized from a self-identification standpoint. And today I’m identifying as a decidedly purple-loving monosexual with a penchant for grilled cheese sandwiches. That’s right. Ignore me. It’s safer for everyone.
Hey John,
Also not an expert, but gender identity is really how one terms themselves. Could be transexual, or could be gender queer, or gender fluid. As to if that makes her (him) heterosexual or gay in a relationship with a woman, that also depends on how someone defines themselves.
I usually think of transexuals those who live and identify themselves as the opposite of their birth sex. They truly feel like they are a man in a woman’s body, or a woman in a man’s body.
It might be interesting to note, since you seem to be from Europe, possibly the UK, that Empress Elizabeth of Austria was considered the most beautiful woman in the world. She hunted and road horses BETTER than most of her male counterparts. She grew up a major tomboy and always outdid her brothers. She was also very competitive with other males in activities, but not so much with women.
Just because a woman can kick it with the best of ‘em doesn’t make them identify as a man. (And that was in the late 1800’s).
Keep in mind as well, that in Europe, particularly Germany and Austria, around the early 1900’s it was a statement for women to dress like men, yet retain that element of womanhood. You can find this in a lot of film history. By the way, some of the films of the 20’s had very racy sexual content.
Guys, thank you all for your input. Limpy 99, you made me laugh out loud in a library!!
Unfortunately, Miss Kellor is dead. That she lived with another woman for years is undeniable. That her letters to her had quasi-erotic moments is undeniable too. My ascription of her as being butch comes from, unfortunately, only one or two pictures where she has short hair and a tie. I do, however, want to make sure that I’m not reading too much into her. I appreciate your cautions.
Her stance as a feminist is very tangental to my dissertation. She did coach women’s basketball. She irked at least one modern feminist for saying sports should teach women cooperation and not ruthless competitiveness. My main concern is that, as the head of the early 20th century movement to Americanize immigrants, she often gets depicted as intolerant and into uniformity. My contention is, however, that someone so far out of the mainstream would be an unlikely candidate to want uniformity.
On another note, it does seem appropriate that someone into Americanization would be lesbian. My political orientation affirms that GLBT life is now accepted in the West much more than anywhere else in the world. That is not to say things are perfect here. But Islamic, African and Asian countries are worse. Being generally pro-America and pro-Western naturally follows being pro-GLBT.
BTW I spoke with someone that researched her before and met her girlfriend’s nephew. The nephew refused, in 1968, to hand over Kellor’s love letters to his aunt. And he seemed, to the person I spoke with, cold to Kellor. I think the whole family was a bit ashamed. She rarely gets mentioned in family letters. Since they were so progressive otherwise, it is sad that they were not closer to and prouder of this great person.
Thanks so much for your input!! John
http://www.culturism.us
pressjohn@hotmail.com
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