Pregnant Father
Mar 25th, 2008 by Recovering Straight Girl
LeLo sent me a link to an interesting article in The Advocate yesterday.
A legally married Oregon couple are pregnant with their first child. Ordinary stuff, yes? This couple is a tad bit out of the ordinary and because of this fact they are facing a tremendous amount of dissension and discrimination. Not the ordinary dissension and discrimination that GLBTQ persons face everyday–even the ones having families. This situation is off of most people’s radar.
The husband in this couple is transgendered. He is legally a male and he and his wife are legally married. His wife is unable to have children so they decided that he would discontinue his testosterone shots and put the female reproductive organs back on line and ready for duty. The female reproductive organs did their thing and with the help of some donor sperm–he is carrying their first child due in July.
This article brought up several separate issues for me having to do with identity differences, discrimination as well as the issue of marriage equality for all people. I would like check in with myself and address these items individually on a couple of different posts.
I think that the Transgender issue is one that many people (gay/straight/or otherwise) have a lot of misconceptions about and often have trouble wrapping their brain around. It’s a notion that most of us, until we are educated about the subject are uncomfortable broaching.
So let us broach, shall we?
As people and as individuals, we have Identity. Sexual Identity and Gender Identity are different issues and an important distinction. Gender Expression is different as well. What does all this mean? Well, it’s a matter of how a person sees themselves in the world.
I am a biological woman who has a Gender Identity of being a woman and a Sexual Identity of being a Lesbian. That in itself is a lot for some people to understand.
The gentleman who is the subject of this article was a biological woman who had a Gender Identity of being a man and a sexual identity of being heterosexual. Technically he still has biological woman parts–does this make him a woman? No. He has a Gender Identity of a man and legally he IS a man.
Another example would be a man who is biologically male, has a Gender Identity of being a woman who identifies as a Lesbian. Confused?
The long and short of it is this: Gender Identity and Sexual Identity are different and each person has their own combo of such identities some just different than others.
What is inside of us can identify who we are on the outside. Or not. Or we choose which parts of us inside identify who we are on the outside. Or not.
I’m one-quarter Italian. If I wished, I could Identify as an Italian. I have an Italian last name, I have curly hair (and sometimes it’s dark,) I like lasagna, I can say Ciao. Who’s to say that I’m any less or more Italian than someone who is “more” Italian than I am?
My BFF Neighbor Judy is Jewish. She’s a terrible Jew and knows NOTHING about her Jewish religion (that she doesn’t practice) or her Jewish heritage (which she doesn’t care much about.) Her son, born to a non-practicing Jewish mother and a Protestant white father is Jewish by Jewish Law. Does this make him “more” Jewish than someone who has no Jewish heritage and converts in order to Identify as a Jewish person?
Is a woman who identifies as a woman any less of a woman if she loses her breasts to a double mastectomy? Is she defined by her body parts or what she perceives as her identity in her mind?
Is a man who identifies as a man any less of a man if he has a uterus? Not if he identifies as a man in his mind.
In order to more fully understand this it’s important to try to put yourself in another persons place. Imagine if you didn’t feel quite right in the body you were born in to? Imagine if you looked in the mirror and saw something different than what you imagined yourself to be. Imagine what the world be like to live in. It would be like waking up in a nightmare every single day of your life. Imagine how grateful you would be if you could make the changes necessary and be able to live with your body matching what you perceived yourself to be in your brain.
I don’t profess to be any kind of expert on transgendered people or their thoughts and experiences; I don’t even personally know anyone who is transgendered. When I found myself needing to check in on how I felt about the issue, I took the time to try to educate myself and look at it in the way I have tried to describe here. I know for me in order to better understand the subject it took me to look at it in this way.
Next I would like to bring up the subject of marriage equality and the inherent and privileged rights that heterosexuals are granted simply because of their Gender and Sexual Identity as related to this article and otherwise.
You did an excellent job in explaining the concept!
I am a biological male with a gender identity of female and my sexual identity is lesbian. When I do an Outreach that is the hardest concept that they have, they all have that look on their faces that says, “Huh?” and their next question is usually, “If you like women, why are you going through all this?”
I have a friend who when he was female could not marry his partner and was covered by the anti-discrimination statues here in Connecticut but when he transitioned he could marry his partner but was not covered by the anti-discrimination statues.
The song “Lola” says it all best…
“Girls will be boys and boys will be girls
Its a mixed up muddled up shook up world except for Lola”
Wow, and I thought my email opened up a lot of questions, it was just the tip of the iceberg.
It IS complex, isn’t it? Thank you for your thoughtful points. In a discussion last night with AdRi about it, I found myself fumbling with the right pronouns in talking about this story. Once a she, than a he, but isn’t he a she now that’s having a child? And in reflection, the legal definition of one’s gender makes this story very complicated, as well. I was intrigued with the writer’s point of wanting a child is not a male or female trait, but a human trait. Fascinating. And look at the first commenter to this post? Kudos to Diana for sharing her thoughts here: I believe we are surrounded by transgender people all the time, but we just don’t know it.
Thanks to RSG for this. Education is surely the obvious way forward for such as me that knows little about this subject. I need more data - maybe we can lay out the facts and then ask Sally Kern for some considered, based on scientific studies, input. There is always the chance her head might explode. (sorry ~)
I just read this article yesterday and have been having the same conversation with myself (yes, I do that a lot).
I am amazed at the courage of this couple and am grateful that they chose to share their experience with the greater community. Education and knowledge are the only ways that we can discuss these issues in order to displace stereotypes and respect all people- no matter their gender or sexual identity.
Ok I tried to click on the link to the article and my computer froze. And it wasn’t letting me view the site that well to begin with. So I only got to the end of the second page on the article.
I don’t want to sound like an insensitive ass but I have to ask. Since he was a she before, even though he was taking testosterone (sp) he still had female parts therefore couldn’t provide the sperm for insemination? I know that seems like a silly question but it just kind of made me think.
From what I did read, I don’t understand why the doctors are being such..babies? about this. I know that’s not the way to word it, but to not be able to find medical care because this person is transgender seems a bit off to me. You would think that the medical community would look at this as something to maybe research. Find out how many people are actually interested in this type of procedure.
Sorry for the long comment and the fact that it seems like a lot of rambling but yeah well there it is.
I should know better than to read your blog when I am trying to work! Sheesh, thanks a lot. I had not heard about the couple you mention in your post, but have recently given thought to the issue for a few reasons, just so I can be more educated.
I identify as a woman, and have always felt “right” as such, but I am not “feminine”. At all. Or, at least, I don’t consider myself to be. I can’t tolerate make up, dresses, high heels, “foofy” stuff like that. On the other hand, while I can use tools, change oil, etc., I really am not all that “into” the traditional “butch” role, either.
When I was younger, I got a lot of “huh” comments from people about my gender. Even into high school and even from adults I often got the “are you a boy or a girl” questions. Real sensitive, them folks. It was often painful, because I KNEW I was a “girl” but I hated being “girlie”, if that makes sense. Even today, I get called “sir” alot on first glance (short hair does it every time), only NOW I just laugh and don’t give it a second thought. I like how I am and if I’m gender bending enough to cause some folks to question, so be it.
Maybe that’s why it the transgender thing is kind of a nonissue for me. If someone FEELS that they are male or female, and that’s how they want to live, then that’s what they ARE. It’s that simple.
Why do we have to make things SOOOO complicated in this life??
Thanks again, RSG, for another thought-provoking post!
GG
Well-said. I am a biological male who identifies as a woman and who is in love with another woman, so I guess I am a male lesbian.
Can’t we all just get along?
Kathryn
That was the most thoughtful and informative discussion of gender identity I’ve ever encountered. Thank you.
I remember when I took Women’s Studies Survey for my major during my senior year of college. I thought I was this hyper evolved feminist at the ripe old age of 22. Then my survey professor rocked my world with the idea that gender is in large part a cultural construction. BLEW MY MIND.
OK, is it a woman or a man… this is not some gender issue, it is biology….
Human Males are incappable of giving birth…
THIS IS DUMB… JUST SHOWS MORE FREAKERY FROM THE GLBT COMMUNITY!
And of course, it leaves no way to reply to it.
SIGH.
GG
I really love that GG refers to it as it.
Ok, this could be a really stupid question, but here I go…..on the birth cert.. how would he be listed…..the mother but sense he is a legally a man would he be listed as the father????? I know I’m confused…..
Good one, GG.
Well done, once again, RSG- I think you did an excellent job of explaining this. The concept is very difficult to understand.
I work with a gentleman who is biologically female, but presents and identifies as male. He has a male partner. They wanted a child, and my coworker did the same thing as the couple in your article- he carried the child to term, and they have a darling son.
He has endured more discrimination and idiocy than I can even fathom. And yet, he has the BEST attitude and is so positive about things. I admire him intensely.
He’s also really started some intense self-examination in my own brain. For years, I have never felt entirely female within my head. I present as female. I have no real interest in having surgery. But I cannot deny that I don’t feel female in thought. The best term I could find was ‘genderqueer’.
Where does that leave me? A lot of questions, not many answers. Yet.
Lachlan,
Genderqueer is a good term. Are you familiar with the works of Leslie Feinberg? Stone Butch Blues (fiction) and Transgender Warrior (nonfiction) are just 2. Also a book called “Gender Outlaw” whose author I cannot remember, but I have the book. All great for this kind of discussion.
While physically I am completely comfortable as a woman, I do think that mentally I often don’t think “like a woman” what ever that means. I am very practical, pragmatic, and really HATE having “drama” in my life. I don’t know what that means on any level, but after nearly 51 years here, I just figure I’m ME, unique like a snowflake, and let it go. What I don’t have is time to worry about what other people think of me. If I’m comfortable in my own skin, that’s what’s important.
Hmm, maybe I should be posting this on YOUR blog?!
LOL,
GG
As for my blog, I should be writing about this there too, methinks!
I can’t shake the feeling that the East German Women’s Olympic team is somehow behind all of this.
It has always driven me crazy when people (like professors in college) state that homosexuality is gender identity issue. I’m a girl, I like girls- no gender issue here, you know???
Well I would only consider one’s happiness. Thanks for the article.
When I saw the article, I was not sure whether Thomas changed sexes because he truly felt male or if he simply wanted to legally marry the woman he loved. It wasn’t clear. In my mind, that is two different issues.
The latter could have been resolved far easier if same sex couples could marry.
I just got done reading this fascinating article on faux news.com and went through purpletwinkies links because I knew someone would post about it. Very Very wonderful post RSG. I wish this couple nothing but success with their family and happiness.
If people would only “live and let live”. *sigh*
I may have forgot but Happy Belated Birthday too. You look great for an old broad *snicker* (now just remember I AM OLDER)
That was such a wonderful article. It made me smile! I’m still fairly new to this whole subculture, having only come out to myself about a year ago, and to my family a few months ago. The world is full of fascinating people that I didn’t know anything about before! I finally feel at home
But about this article… I sent the link to your blog to a friend of mine who is on a business trip in China at the moment, but he can’t read it until he comes back to Canada because they’ve got restrictions on “inappropriate” sites over there…
Ridiculous.
Nothing is going to get any better if people refuse to see all the good in the world. Honestly…
Thank you for all the detail, and nicely explaining things. I’m looking forward to part 2 (and 3 and . . .)
For Margaret: yes, even though he was taking medication he still did not have testicles that produced sperm and therefor could not be the biological father.
A few random things:
It always bothers me when people ask “Are you going to find out the gender?” when you’re pregnant. “Sex is what’s between the legs, gender is what’s between the ears” is how it was explained to me once.
This article also made me think about people born Intersex - with both sets of genitalia. Traditionally, gender has been decided for them by doctors and yet now they’re fighting back and saying “Let us decide for ourselves.”
I went to a conference with my GSA students one year and was enlightened about a lot of transgender issues as well as other things such as people who don’t want to subscribe to any gender and don’t want to be referred to by the pronouns “he” or “him” but instead want the pronouns “ze” or “hir” used. This was being presented to us by young people in high school or just out of high school. It was interesting to hear the voice of the future.
Great questions and explanation. I’m grateful for the internet so that transgendered gay/straight people can find their preferred partners more easily. (and I hope that discrimination decreases fast.)
I was made aware of the story about this loving couple before it broke. I too initially had questions in my mind and heart that I caused me to take time to do a self inventory of why I was feeling both joy and apprehension.
As I read the various reactions locally, nationally and internationally my joy and apprehension have shifted focus.
Just for the record and as a matter of disclosure, I am a woman, a lesbian, a parent, a latina, an activist, and among all the other identities which we use to describe ourselves in shorthand, I also have a transgender history. I am out to the world and choose not to hide or conceal any part of my life.
When I first learned of the story and how it was about to unfold in the media, I felt a cringe. The same kind of cringe I felt a la Jerry Springer Show. I also wondered about the motivation of a man who is transgender, more accurately transsexual (there is a difference) would want or consent to being pregnant. Scenes from Letterman’s or Leno’s monologues immediately played in my mind.
At the same time I felt joy for two human beings, challenged by medical and social difficulties, who wanted to start a family and found a way to be happy.
Reading this blog inspired me to write more. However, I did not want to be rude and put it all on this great blog that RSG has done so well with. I posted it all on my diary page at Pams House Blend Blogsite if anyone cares to read the rest. Hopefully the link will embed properly. http://www.pamshouseblend.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=4883>diary post at Pams House Blend if not I’m sure folks can find it.
Sorry, one of these days I’ll figure it out try this link instead.
http://www.pamshouseblend.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=4883
As a lawyer, I am fascinated by watching the law try to untie its discriminatory knots around gender issues. TG/TS/TGV folks I’ve worked with and learned from for decades; it has at times been challenging on many levels and it has without fail been worth every challenge.
One example of the law tying itself in knots: In TX (known for its generosity of spirit), a county court decided that what is recorded on your original birth certificate as to gender is what you remained for life, regardless of surgery or identity. The decision was never appealed. Soooo, lots of male-to-female TG’s have legally married their lesbian lovers and some (they are statistically fewer) female-to-male TG folks have married their boyfriends in that Texas county! It’s the law!
Oh for the day when we can all be evolved adults allowed to love who we love, and be left alone by those who love differently.
is it complex?
or is it really just very simple.
The transgender topic is something I used to have difficulty wrapping my brain around… I was totally “live and let live” but I wanted to understand it better. I read an excellent book called “She’s Not There: A Life in Two Genders,” by Jennifer Finney Boylan and I had a much clearer and more empathetic picture afterward.
I think a challenge I still have is coming to grips with the “marriage rights” issue… like you said, is it (”equality”) really about changing body parts?
Very good post. I have not had a chance to read all the responses so I apologize if I’m rehashing what another has said.
Technically, and legally, the man in this story is a woman. Your claiming Italian heritage would be similar if you were born Irish. What do you think the reaction would be if you did that - if you had bright red hair, pitch perfect white skin, a lovely Irish brogue and then told everyone you were Italian?
That’s what this man is doing. He was born a woman, changed his outward appearance to be a man but still kept the one essential aspect of womanhood - the ability to bear a child.
Nevertheless, I completely agree with weese. This is all very simple. You have two committed people who want to have a child. Any gender roles you assign them or I assign them or the world assigns them or they assign themselves, are meaningless. They’re human. They’re having a baby. Yay.
Oh…and what a bitch finding maternity clothes.
I apologize for hiding behind the veil of anonymity and making a “comment to a previous comment.” I should probably have gone to E.’s website and commented there, but maybe RSG will provide this as a “topic for discussion” in one of her future writings. I’d just like to let E. know that the following is erroneous…
“This article also made me think about people born Intersex - with both sets of genitalia. Traditionally, gender has been decided for them by doctors and yet now they’re fighting back and saying “Let us decide for ourselves.”
The Intersex Society of North America (ISNA) has a very good website that explains what intersex is (and isn’t).
http://www.isna.org/faq/what_is_intersex
As an intersexed individual, it’s hurtful when people have misconceptions about who (and what) you are. First and foremost, I’m a human being - trying to make my way through life. There are a myriad of intersex conditions on the intersexed spectrum, but very few are true hermaphrodites (having genitalia and traits of both sexes).
As many of us already know, society isn’t very “kind” of individuals that fit out of the norm. There’s a strong drive for everyone to conform and “fit in the proper box” so to speak. Obviously, I had some “issues.” I had ambiguous genitalia and XY chromosomes, but was assigned to be “a girl.” It’s easier to “make a girl” - you don’t need those extra “boy parts.”
Actually, I would have been very happy being a girl had my clitoris not been “modified” (a nicer word than hacked on). Now, I would say I’m pretty much “asexual.” However, I can’t blame anyone for the past - it was a lack of education and understanding, which are key in treating intersexed individuals today.
My apologies again to RSG for being “off topic” and “ranting.”
There is an editorial about Mr. Beatie on the Bilerico Project by Donna Rose.
http://www.bilerico.com/2008/03/pregnant_man_the_tip_of_a_much_deeper_ic.php#more
I agree with she said at the end of the editorial…
“Although I’ve never met Thomas or even spoken to him, he is a brother, and I will defend his right to be himself and to live his life. That’s something any of us should expect to be able to do. And that, truly, is what’s at stake here.”
I just wanted to quickly reply to Orchid. I don’t know if you will come back and read this or not, but I wanted to reply. First of all, I didn’t mean any disrespect. I wrote “People born Intersex” making sure I addressed the human being first. Secondly, I went to the website you referenced in your post and it says
“For example, a person might be born appearing to be female on the outside, but having mostly male-typical anatomy on the inside.”
Please correct me if I’m wrong, but wouldn’t that mean that the person might be born with both, even if both does not mean on the outside?
I’m definitely not an expert on Intersex, and I wasn’t trying to say that everyone was born with both a full penis etc., and full vagina etc., so sorry if I offended you.
Hi, I’m trying to understand all the terminology here. To be honest, I’m preparing for my comprehensive exams and the history of American Sexualities is one of my areas. I need help.
The reason that this is one of my categories is that my dissertation is on Frances Kellor. She was the head of the Americanization movement from 1908 - 1924. She had a female life partner for 50 years. She often dressed like a man. I need to understand how scholars would categorize her.
According to your terminology, though Kellor was phsyically a female, would you call her gender identity of male? If she has a gender identity of male, would she be heterosexual or lesbian? I read all the posts and still don’t entirely get it. Thanks!
BTW it might be interesting for you to know that Kellor ran much of Teddy Roosevelt’s 1912 progressive campaign. The press gave him grief for putting her and Jane Addams in positions of power. He said, in so many words, that they had changed his mind about suffrage and about lesbian women. Honestly, I think they both bonded over being so very macho. Kellor was a hunter and gamesman.
BTW, the Americanization movement always gets panned as coercive and hateful of diversity. I’m arguing, among other things, that it seems strange to assert that a gender bending lesbian was intolerant of diversity. I paint her work as inclusive. I think she would have seen herself as non-mainstream. Do you think this is fair?
Sorry for writing too much. Really, clarification on the terms would be most helpful. Book recommendations would too. Thanks, John
[…] gentleman named John left a comment on the post I wrote, Pregnant Father about the terminology and differences between Sexual Identity and Gender Identity. In his comment […]
Love can bring you to do some very drastic things. Watching the one you love want something like a child sooooo badly and not be able to bring a child to full term must have been very difficult for him.
Personal belief systems and politics aside, it’s a story about how much someone will do for love.
And that’s what’s important, I think.